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Melissa Fleming 00:00

Artificial intelligence is changing our world so fast it's breathtaking. How do we make sure AI is used for good and not for bad? That is a challenge that's keeping many of us awake at night.

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 00:13

I think we've never seen anything like this before. You know, as some have said, 'It's the genie's out of the bottle or the plane is in flight and we're building it while we're flying ¨C it¡¯s tremendous.'

 

Melissa Fleming 00:36

Doreen Bogdan-Martin is the Secretary-General of the International Telecommunication Union. It is her job to set standards for AI, and to make sure that people who are unconnected to the digital world don't get left behind. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Doreen, it's great to have you here.

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 01:08

Thank you, Melissa. It's great to be here.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 01:09

It's also great to be here in Geneva, which is where your headquarters are, the International Telecommunication Union. Quite a mouthful of a title. But its work is about some of the biggest technological challenges, from the telegraph and the telephone to email to your current challenge and all of our current challenge - AI. Can you just give us a brief idea of what you do?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 01:36

So, ITU, as you said, it's a mouthful - International Telecommunication Union. We've been around since 1865, when we started, because of the telegraph and the need to ensure that telegraphic messages could actually pass from one country to another. So it was started in Europe. It was a European-based organization. And the first treaty that was brokered was on the telegraph, the International Telegraph Convention. And then, of course, we moved on, and our mission is all about connectivity. It's about connecting the unconnected. We have two big, bold, ambitious strategic objectives - universal connectivity and sustainable digital transformation. And in a world today where we still have a third of humanity not connected, we have a lot of work to do.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:36

You have dedicated most of your career, a lot, the big bulk of it - 30 years - to ITU. You've seen it change from the inside. What were some of the biggest changes that you experienced there? Other than your being elected as Secretary-General, the first woman, which we will come to from the inside, but we'll get to that. But in terms of just the world changing and ITU with it.

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 03:05

Yeah. And when you think about the tech sector, it's incredible in particular in recent years how the sector has evolved. And you know, when we think about it, it took 125 years to get to a billion fixed telephone lines. And of course, this is kind of our kind of youth, and you know, growing up as young adults, it was all about that fixed telephone line that you had at home. And I remember when the extra-long telephone cord was first invented, and you could actually walk around the kitchen or escape from your parents by going down the basement stairs to have a private call. But, you know, you had the fixed line, and then it took about 20 years to get to the first billion internet users. It took ten years to get to the first billion mobile subscribers.

And when we think about kind of the latest, when it comes to generative AI, ChatGPT in the course of 60 days got to 100 million users. And so what we're seeing is technology is moving at leaps and bounds. And it's absolutely incredible. And I think I've been fortunate to be at the ITU, as I said, having kind of a front-row seat to watching and being part of this evolving, dynamic sector. And what it means is actually no day is like the day before, and it's never boring because new things are happening, and things are changing. And our governments, our line ministries, are also changing. And so it makes for an exciting and as I said, never boring challenge.

 

Melissa Fleming 04:58

Do you remember how you felt when some of those changes came in?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 05:02

Well, I remember even before the ITU when my parents got our first computer, I think it was a Gateway or something back then. And when I got my first mobile device. It was the car phone. It was gigantic. And it had a cord. And, you know, it was exciting. We knew that things were starting to change. And of course, I remember well traveling around Europe and sending those postcards from the post office to family members to just stay in touch because making a fixed-line call back then were so prohibitively expensive.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 05:47

So we're at a time now where artificial intelligence technology that allows computers to operate and learn almost like humans is developing so incredibly quickly. How does this make you feel?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 06:04

It's exciting. It's exciting to think about the potential of AI when it comes to things like healthcare, when it comes to things like agriculture, when it comes to education. That potential is huge. And the ability for countries, least developed countries, developing countries to be able to leverage AI to leapfrog. And I think that's what's so exciting. But of course, at the same time, there are risks. And when it comes to misinformation, disinformation, and of course, that's something that you've been, tracking very closely. When it comes to deepfakes that's a big concern this year as so many countries will go to vote with all of the elections happening this year. Bias is another big issue, security, trust.

So there's a lot of challenges when it comes to AI, and we need to face those challenges. And I think we all look forward to the Summit of the Future, things like the Global Digital Compact and trying to find a way forward in terms of global governance on AI. We need to get those guardrails right, and we need to make sure that we can ensure that the benefits are made available while mitigating the risks and not stifling innovation. So trying to find the right balance between the two is going to be critical.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:32

So if you were to summarize what the advent of AI coming onto the scene is and means in the context of technological advances in one sentence. How would you say it?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 07:46

I think we've never seen anything like this before. You know, as some have said, 'It's the genie's out of the bottle or the plane is in flight and we're building it while we're flying ¨C it¡¯s tremendous.'  And the speed at which it's impacting every sector of the economy, education, society. I mean, it's tremendous. And I think we haven't seen anything like this before.

 

Melissa Fleming 08:18

You were speaking about all of the benefits, especially to parts of the world that usually don't benefit from the advances in technology. And I just want to go a little deeper there because I think it's true. All we hear about AI when we're reading the papers or looking at the news whatever is the risks and the disinformation acceleration, and the deep fakes and AI is going to take over the world and it's going to steal everybody's jobs. Can you just give an example of how AI could benefit a small community in a developing country in, I don't know, the area, as you mentioned - healthcare and education. What would that look like?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 08:56

I mean, I would say maybe first, let's remember, as I said before, that 2.6 billion people don't have access to the Internet. And so if you're not part of the digital revolution, you're not going to be part of the AI revolution. So we got to close that gap. But when it comes to the way that developing countries are currently trying - those that are connected, in particular - to leverage benefits. I think there's a great example that we saw last year at our AI for Good Summit, and it was a winner of our AI Innovation Factory. And it's a young man from Senegal, and he came out with a platform called Tolbi. And farmers that have started to use Tolbi, which leverages AI and data analytics, have actually seen their yields increase by 200%, which is phenomenal. And I mean, that's one example, but there are many. And I think that's again what's so exciting.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 10:07

When you think about though the risks that you just mentioned, what is keeping you awake at night?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 10:19

I would say, besides my kids, what keeps me awake at night are the unconnected, right? So those 2.6 billion and how can we connect them. But what also keeps me awake at night are those AI risks and misuse of AI and weaponization of AI. How can we make sure that something that has such potential for good is not used for bad?

 

Melissa Fleming 10:48

What could some of those...? What are some examples of the weaponization that you're most concerned about?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 10:57

Well we've seen in recent headlines about some of the ongoing conflicts using AI, and you know, I think the Ãå±±½ûµØSG [Secretary-General] has said quite clearly that AI needs to benefit humanity and not waging wars.

 

Melissa Fleming 11:20

So using it as target precision. There's also the huge concern about the deployment of AI in the production of fake content and especially in election context. And this is 2024, it¡¯s like a boom election year for the world. I think you said 2 billion people are not connected. I think about that same number going to the polls this year. And so we've already seen deepfakes being deployed in video and in audio. Again, this is where some of these were using traditional technologies, but some of them are using AI technologies, which are cheaper and easier and also easier to target. What are your concerns in this area?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 12:09

I think there were concerns before, as you mentioned, when it comes to misinformation, disinformation on social media platforms. AI can just exacerbate that. And deepfakes... You know, we've seen recently a politician in a neighboring country had a deepfake of a person that didn't exist, and it was her niece. And had quite a lot of traction and following until it came out that this person didn't even exist, and it was actually a deepfake.

You know that kind of influence, I would say on any age group. Maybe young people are more savvy to detect deepfakes or misinformation, but maybe not. And so I think campaigns, and efforts like the Information Integrity Brief and the Verified campaign are so important. I think we have to work together with the private sector, especially with the platform companies to help ensure that we reduce misinformation. And I do think that's another place where standards can be very helpful. Things like watermarking and being able to authenticate real information and detect misinformation or deepfakes.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:43

So a lot of responsibility is on the companies. You have children and I have a daughter. How many of your four children are girls?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 13:53

Two.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:52

Two. I mean, there have been these stories of late of using AI, young people, teenagers using AI to create deepfake pornography aimed at their fellow classmates. And probably not really meaning to cause the harm that they're causing when they go online, but just the ease with which they can hurt, particularly women and girls in this dimension. Is that something that...?

 

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 14:21

Yeah, it's a big concern both as Secretary-General of the ITU but also as a parent and a mother. You know, I remember when my children were growing up and, you know, their first devices going from the iPod to ultimately the iPhone and trying to find ways to protect them. And I remember my husband and I used to take away all their devices, and we would put it in the part of the house that would be under an alarm at night. And the kids always found ways to outsmart us. And so they would like take their phone case and make it look like it was plugged in but the phone wasn't there. And you know, kids are clever.

And even if back in the old days almost, if we put those protections on their laptops or on their phones, there was always a way for them to figure out how to get around them. And I think the challenge that we face today is that the technology's moving so fast that as parents it's hard to keep track of what's happening and what are the potential dangers. And I think also the challenge for educators on how they can help educating young people about what to look out for, what to be careful of. I think that's a conversation that changes every year.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:55

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned education and all of your kids are in school now. And I know that a number of countries are teaching like media literacy. Is enough being done from what you're seeing in the education sphere to equip kids on protecting themselves, spotting mis and disinformation, understanding what is trusted information, navigating this new AI world? Also, figuring out how they can work with generative AI, ChatGPT - what's permitted, what isn't.

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 16:30

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot happening. We have an effort that we started back in 2010. It was a different world, of course, back then on child online protection. And we have a series of guidelines for parents, educators, ministries, and the private sector. And we continue to update those guidelines, which are available in multiple languages. And we have online trainings. And, you know, we work closely with different partners, in particular with UNICEF. But it changes so frequently. And so the guidelines are one thing, but how to keep pace with really what's happening in the present. So it's tricky and I think we have to continue to encourage the private sector to work closely with us in ensuring that educators, parents, get the right.... Young people, of course, get the right information and can understand how to protect themselves and what are the risks.

 

Melissa Fleming 17:39

The private sector themselves are part of the problem, right? Their own designs. I mean, what do you say to them when you meet with these big platforms?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 17:48

Well, I mean, they can be part of the problem, but they can also be part of the solution. And we've been pushing many of the social media companies to join forces with us. Actually, Facebook was one of our initial partners on child online protection, which was quite helpful. And so getting them engaged is a first and very important step, and also having more global dialogues about the risks and how to mitigate the risks, the impact on women and girls, the increase in online violence, bullying, harassment. I think we have to do much more, and we have to be talking about it.

 

Melissa Fleming 18:35

Absolutely. Shifting a little bit, because one of the things I understand you deal with is the impact of the huge boom in satellite launches. What is keeping you awake at night when it comes to our crowded skies?

 

 

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 18:49

Space sustainability. And it is a concern. We just had a recent decision at one of our conferences on space sustainability. The ITU has been involved in space for many years, assigning the first frequencies for satellites back 60 years ago. And of course, since then many things have changed. And it's an area where there's a lot of excitement because with new technologies, in particular in the low Earth orbit, you can basically connect anyone, anywhere. But with that we have I think there's more than 9000 satellites up there. And the European Space Agency estimates that there's probably about a million pieces of debris, between 1 and 10cm. So there's debris up there. There are satellites up there.

And the ITU, which is the entity that receives the filings, as we call it. So if you want to put something up in space, you come to us and say, 'We want to put ten satellites up, or 10,000 satellites up.' And so our current filings show that there is an intention to have an additional 1.7 million satellites up there by 2030. Now whether that happens or not. Often filings, we call them paper filings, don't materialize. But the fact that they have been filed. And potentially there could be 1.7 million more objects up there is a cause for concern. And so we need to make sure that we keep our space sustainable and that we don't cause unnecessary collisions and debris up in space. And that is a big concern. While at the same time, the advances in technology are also super exciting, not just for connectivity, but also for things like climate monitoring and being able to predict and also to help when it comes to response should a natural disaster occur.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:16

It's incredible the broad spectrum of work that ITU does and that you're responsible for. And I'm just really curious how you got into this position. I believe you didn't always want to work in the field of communication. You grew up in New Jersey. What did you want to do back then?

 

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 21:34

I wanted to be a doctor. My father was a doctor. So I was very science focused. I grew up in a sort of science-loving family. I loved chemistry. I loved math. Didn't like biology, but I was crazy about chemistry. A lot of our aunts and uncles were engineers, amateur radio fans. And you know, I definitely had a like for technology, but I was very focused on chemistry. And when I was in the middle of my university studies, I just gave up on chemistry. And I think in part it was not a motivating environment. And I was one of a handful of women, which remains, I think, a big challenge when it comes to the science fields as a whole.

So I sort of switched over to social sciences when I graduated. I went abroad, and I was an English teacher in Spain. I always took Spanish as a minor in my university studies. And when I came back, I found a great programme that would give me an opportunity to do international. I had a love for international. My mom was Irish, my dad was Polish and grew up with lots of stories about life in Europe. And I wanted to do something international. And I got into this programme that had a big focus on communications, in particular telecommunications.

And so I started taking some classes, had amazing professors, and I landed an internship at the US Department of Commerce in the National Telecommunications and Information Administration. That's a mouthful. And from there I got a paid job and kind of the rest was history. And I managed to start on satellite communications when I was back in the government. I was focused on privatizations when countries were starting to privatize their PTTs. And I just loved it. They sent me for three months on a detachment to the ITU and I've been at the ITU for 30 plus years now.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:59

Wow! And I understand your Spanish link also entered into your love life. You married a Spanish man. How did you meet him?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 24:10

We actually met on an airplane. It happens.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:15

You happened to be sitting next to each other?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 24:17

So I was sitting at one window. He was at the other window, and there's no one in between. And we were both on connecting flights. I was coming back from a big telecom conference in Argentina and had a lay-over in Madrid. And he was coming back from something in the US, and he had a lay-over in Madrid. He was living in Geneva, and I had on my lap at the same time the Financial Times and Hola magazine. And he looked over at me and said in Spanish, you know, something like, 'I've never seen a woman that was like an Hola person and a Financial Times person.' Which I thought was very funny. So I started laughing, and then we started chatting, exchanged business cards, and we went out on our first date a few weeks later.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:07

You have four kids, three of them are triplets. How did you...? I mean, I understand that it was already a bit of a struggle at ITU, which was maybe not that family-focused at the time and the policies for women. So with one it was already a bit of a struggle. Can you tell a little bit about that? And then what happened when you learned that you were pregnant with triplets?

 

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 25:41

So while the triplets came when my oldest was 22 months old. So I had four children under the age of two, which was a challenge. And when I found out I was pregnant with the triplets... I mean, I had come back to work. Some months before I was working 80%, because of my first born and then here are I am pregnant with triplets. And I had just become the acting head of a division, and we had a big conference that we were planning. And I decided not to tell anyone it was triplets. Everybody knew I was pregnant, but I decided I wouldn't say anything. And the weeks went on, and as you can imagine, I got bigger and bigger very, very quickly. As soon as the event had passed - and we had a great conference - I then told everyone that I was pregnant with triplets.

And it was interesting because people did treat me differently. It was not the most supportive environment. I then, fortunately, gave birth to three, amazing and perfect children, and they were premature. So they came at 34 weeks. They were six weeks premature, but fortunately all healthy. And because I had to stop working some weeks before, and they stayed in the hospital for four weeks after they were born, I had almost used up my maternity leave when I brought them home. And I was also nursing for four months I think in total. So I made a request to my employer, the ITU, to have an extended maternity leave, and that request was denied. And it was denied on the basis that they didn't want to set a precedent.

And it was a really difficult period in my life because I was being told that if I wanted to take leave without pay, because I wasn't Swiss, I would have to turn in my work visa. My nanny, who I had just brought over and was helping me with my older daughter, who was now going to help me with the triplets, I was told that she would have to give back her visa. And it was really not a pleasant time. I ended up using some vacation. I had sick leave, and I ultimately went back to the office when they were about nine months after taking, as I said, vacation and even sick leave. So it was not healthy environment. The head of HR at the time had called me and said that he had good news for me, that I could get 30 minutes off in the morning and 30 minutes off in the afternoon to breastfeed. And as I lived on the other side of the lake, that wasn't very helpful. And breastfeeding three children at the same time takes like over an hour.

So, yeah, I mean there's a lot there and it was not a very supportive framework. But I must say that things are much better. And as Secretary- General and the first woman, I want to make sure that we have in place the right policies for parents, men, and women and that we're able to create a healthy and enabling environment so that young parents can thrive even if they have small children at home. Which was difficult back when my children were smaller. It impacted me but I guess it also made me stronger and it made me more determined.

 

Melissa Fleming 30:00

Perhaps more determined to become the first woman Secretary-General of ITU. I mean, in a way that those kinds of policies were disadvantaging women. There weren't also many women like you in ITU or even in the sector. Can you describe what it was like kind of working your way up the ranks in ITU?

 

 

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Doreen Bogdan-Martin 30:26

Well, I mean, I developed a thick skin and remained determined, but it wasn't easy. And often it could be very lonely. You know, if you're the first woman to head a division and now the first woman Secretary-General. And I mean, being the first bears a lot of responsibility, because you want to make sure that others don't have the same challenges you had and that you can create a better environment for others to flourish and thrive. But it's difficult because you have to move things forward.

But it can be really very lonely because you don't have the peers and the support network that you need. It's tough. And it's a tough sector because it is male dominated, even today. And when we look at things like space or when we look at AI, we still have this huge gender gap in the tech sector as a whole, but especially in new and emerging fields where we definitely need women at the table if we're looking at bias and algorithms and AI. And so we need to do more to get more women into the IT workforce. And we need to do more to get more women into the tech sector, in particular in managerial and leadership positions.

 

Melissa Fleming 32:01

It sounds like you have a lot on your agenda as Secretary- General, but your children are still young. I mean, how do you manage that work life balance?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 32:14

It's a constant challenge. Once you think you've got the balance right then it goes wrong. You know, I think as working parents you have to set some boundaries. And I tried when they were younger to never travel at the same time my husband was traveling. That was like a family rule. We always tried to be home for dinner. And if I wasn't going to be home, he was going to be home. So those family meals were also really important. Making sure that you don't miss key moments like birthdays or now graduations. And just setting the boundaries.

And I think, in the workforce, we shouldn't be afraid to express those boundaries. Being the first woman director or chief of department, definitely back then I was afraid to speak up about the fact that I needed to leave for a family obligation. I don't want people to be afraid to speak up about a family obligation or a commitment that they made to their son or daughter. Because we need to be able to do both. And if you have to leave for a soccer match and you need to do something that's urgent for your job, you could always get back online later. Or you can share it with your manager or colleague, and maybe somebody else can jump in to do that. So, you know, I think finding the balance is a challenge. It can be done. And trying to figure out what boundaries do you need to set that make you comfortable so that you don't feel that you're not doing enough as a mother or as a spouse or as a professional in your institution.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:15

Well, I think is it your oldest child now who's about to graduate from college?

 

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 34:20

So I actually have my oldest graduating with her master's. And I have two graduating from undergrad. And the third one, who's one of the triplets, will graduate next year. She's doing a longer programme.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:39

Are any of them following in your footsteps?

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 34:43

Not... Well, maybe a little bit. I have one, my oldest who's focused on public health, big on international. Spent some summers abroad. Very focused on NGOs and public service. And I have one that also is focused on science. She's much more of a biology than a chemistry person, and she wants to be a medical doctor. And so I think maybe I had a little bit to do with that. And probably my father had more to do with that. And then I have one that's going into business and another that hasn't yet made up his mind. So, a nice mix.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:27

Very good. Well, it was really great to have you here to have this conversation with you, Doreen. Thanks for joining me.

 

Doreen Bogdan-Martin 35:33

Well thank you. Thank you, Melissa. It was a pleasure.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:37

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, and Carlos Macias. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.