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Melissa Fleming 00:00

The scars left by torture are appalling. My guest this week, Alice Jill Edwards, sees the impact firsthand.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 00:08

To be sitting across from grown men who kind of look away occasionally, who don't want you to see how upset they are, to see the tremors when they recount their stories. Who apologize because they can't recall what happened at a certain point during the torture, or they couldn't remember the day of the week. It's very distressing.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:41

Alice is the Special Rapporteur on torture, a horrendous practice which is increasing throughout the world. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Alice.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 01:04

Thanks so much, Melissa. Great to be here.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:07

Alice, you've dedicated your life to human rights. When and where did that start?

 

 

Alice Jill Edwards 01:15

You know, what I always say is that, you know, if you're born a woman into this world, then you're born a feminist. I think it's very hard, really no matter where you grew up, what your life circumstances are. It was very evident to me as a very young child that there were differences in the education that was available to girls and boys, even in a developed country such as Australia.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:44

So, you grew up in Australia in Tasmania?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 01:49

That's right. It's an island that is in the southern end of Australia, one of the continents of the world. So really very removed. Or a sense that it would be very removed. My father was an international businessman. So perhaps more than most people on the island of Tasmania I was aware of the outside world. We had foreign visitors come to the house for dinner. My sisters and I corresponded with a French family, which was one of my father's business partners for several years. And I guess that might have been one of my first experiences of the differences in international diplomacy. They would send our carefully crafted French letters back to us corrected. And we found this as a more Anglo-oriented family, you know, quite disheartening. And we didn't do the same in reverse. We didn't correct their letters and send them back. We were just delighted to receive them.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:56

So, you're¡­ I¡¯m getting the sense that you're fascinated by the outside world. But you also said at the beginning that as a girl you already felt some injustice, which gave you kind of feminist instincts. What did that look like in Tasmania? I'm trying to picture it.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 03:17

So, you know, I think from an early age I was really into sport. And I think sport is a great way to¡­ You know, there are a lot of rules. It's about fairness and integrity. And when I was about 12 years old, I was winning a lot of races. In fact, later I was classified by the Australian Institute of Sport as an elite athlete. And at 12 years old, we were told that the 400 metres for girls was no longer available to us. And they were worried about the impact of a 400-metres, a very tough race, on our wombs and our ability to have children.

And I remember being, you know like, I was beating the boys¡¯ times at that era. And I remember being very frustrated by that. So, you know, I took it upon myself to write a letter to the Athletics Federation of Tasmania and complained about this injustice. And they did change the rules allowing two age groups of girls to compete. But actually, what I love about that story is not just that I kind of, you know, it was something that affected me, but it also affected other girls. But that I wrote the letter on pink stationery that my parents had given me as a gift. And I think that sends a signal. I always say, you know, this just tells me that we can be any type of women that we want to be. There's no, you know, one set way to be.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 04:53

Well, it sounds like the activist in you was born then.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 04:58

Yeah, I think so. And I went on to debate at school and I was selected actually for the United Nations youth conference. I was the reserve and then I was called up. So, you know, there were a lot of opportunities for kind of outwards engagement. And then of course, university was very much a formative period for me. I studied international and advanced international law. And, you know, that really cemented for me that this was an area that I was particularly interested in - kind of combining history, politics, and law. Three things that I am very interested in.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:44

I'm just trying to imagine what Tasmania is like. Can you just describe maybe just what it was like as a child growing up there. I think it's quite a beautiful place.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 05:58

It's¡­. Well, I grew up in the 70s and 80s. So, in fact, in Australian politics terms we were just coming off the White Australia Policy. Tasmania is a very, as you say, isolated place. Yeah, a very green, very safe, a childhood full of nature and sport. Going down, there was a big bush, big forest in the back of my parents¡¯ house, and we would¡­ My sisters and I would go down there, and you know, just hang out for the whole day. It was one of those kind of you'd play in the street, you know, the kind of the freedoms of the 70s and 80s. And yeah, a very safe environment. So, in fact, the work that I do now was incredibly remote to me as a younger person.

When I was around 11, I had a, I'd say, a run in with my grandmother, who was making derogatory comments about a Japanese family on the beach. And I remember confronting her and saying, ¡®You know, why are you making these statements? You know, why are you saying this?¡¯ And I remember very profoundly, she said to me, ¡®Well, they killed my friends.¡¯ And as an 11-year-old, you know, you don't really understand those¡­ You don't really understand the extent of that. And I just promptly responded with something like, ¡®Well, don't you think your friends killed their friends too?¡¯

And I think that was for me¡­ Looking back, that was for me something that stays with me now, because I never really understood hate. I've never really understood. Even though I understand it in a theoretical sense, and I have compassion for people that have really suffered terrible tragedies in their lives, including at the hands of other people. But as a young child, I think we are all born with what a clean slate. And you know, if you're a thinking child, you will resist the writing on your slate. And I think through my childhood I did question. I was continually questioning what the family would say, or what you'd hear others say within the community. So, you know, it certainly was an interesting kind of time when you look back on it. But of course, as a child, mostly it was a very, you know, a childhood full of joy and nature and you know, those kinds of things.

But, you know, when you think about the influences in your life. You know, my grandmother who lived till she was 100, on the other side of my family, you know, she used to sing opera on the radio. And she worked as a secretary in a law firm. You know, for her generation that was really kind of doing something quite different. I mean, women of her generation didn't do those kinds of things. She had beautiful, quaffed hair, always well presented, and very educated. She educated herself. You know, read a lot of books. There was a lot of time for self-education. So, you know¡­ Yeah, childhood was pretty, I'd say pretty calm when you think about the childhoods that many people have around this world.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 09:44

Yeah. It sounds like that grandmother influenced you a lot. How about your parents? I mean, you obviously¡­ You mentioned you went on to study. We know¡­ We're going to hear about your international career. Were they encouraging you?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 09:59

My mother was a stickler for etiquette, I have to say. So certainly, you know, manners which have politeness, that has certainly held me in good stead as I've progressed through this diplomatic world. Certainly, there was a strong emphasis on education. We were three girls in my family. We were all expected to do well, to study hard. You know, to be fair, and to be honest. I think all of those things still very much resonate with me. And in a way, even though my parents were not anywhere near the human rights world that I now occupy, the values that they instilled in me are essentially human rights values. The values of nondiscrimination, of treating people as you find them. Of having compassion, of trying to understand, of reading history. Of learning about other cultures and being open and inquisitive to other cultures. So, you know, that kind of combination, I think, has been very helpful as I've gone throughout my life.

 

Melissa Fleming 11:11

Absolutely. And how did you decide then to work internationally?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 11:18

So, I had been wanting to travel. The love of travel I think came from my father, also, who would always return from business trips with his, you know, sepia type slides that we'd have to watch. But actually, I quite frequently would relook at them. And so, this love of travel. I saved up throughout university to travel, which is a very common Australian thing to do. And even before I had my law results, I took a flight to South Africa in 1996. So just post-Apartheid. I went on my own. And the only other international travel I had done at that point was to New Zealand for a law conference. Of course, Mandela had been elected, but they didn't even have their constitution in place at the time. And of course, I was backpacking and travelling. I find Africa in particular¡­ I've lived and worked in different parts of Africa. I then went on to work in Mozambique, and in Rwanda, as well as Morocco.

And, you know, I think this¡­Yes. This was also extremely formative and made me more determined to do this type of work. I also would say, you know, I realized after reading National Geographic - as great a journal as they are - I came away from those first kind of strides in South Africa and in Mozambique thinking, you know, the world isn't a glossy picture from the National Geographic. There are parts that are much grimmer than that. That the reality of people's day to day is much harder than the images would portray. And I think, kind of that curiosity has stayed with me, but it's become a curiosity with perhaps a deeper understanding of what's real, and what people's lived experiences really are.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:30

How did that affect you in terms of your understanding of human rights as you progressed in your career, especially as a humanitarian?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 13:40

I mean, I think it's really important that we try and balance out the terrible with the good. And of course, we see a lot of very egregious violations, the most horrific human rights harms being perpetrated on people. And there's always the other side, there's always someone who's doing something courageous. There's always someone that is, or a whole community that are stepping up. It's a bit clich¨¦ to say we see the best and the worst of humanity in these times of crisis. But I think the best in a crisis is there to remind us of what's possible. And the worst of humanity is there to remind us that we mustn't go down those routes. Of course, not everybody's listening to those signals, and that's why we're in such a state. The world is in such a state that it is in. But certainly, yes, throughout my career I¡¯ve met the most amazing people and also sat across from, you know, war criminals. And you know, who also may have a touch of humanity about them. I mean, the human psyche is a very strange one. Yeah, especially when it comes to the work I do now around torture.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:12

Yeah, I mean, you worked in Bosnia and Herzegovina for UNHCR, the UN's Refugee Agency after the war. And you spent some time I believe in Srebrenica where around 8000 boys and men were murdered. What was your experience spending time in Srebrenica and meeting some of the survivors and the mothers of those victims?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 15:42

So yes, I spent two years in Bosnia. I was based in Sarajevo. And one of my roles was as the focal point on refugee women and girls. And the role of UNHCR was to help people to return to their pre conflict properties, to reclaim their houses and to reconnect either with their pensions or social security or any other of the rights that they had before the war. It was not an easy task. And, you know, that whole process brought me to doing a study on the impact of this kind of return agenda on women, victims of sexual violence, rape, sexual enslavement, torture, which was widespread during the Bosnian conflict. And it also brought me to interview a number of the Srebrenica mothers who were at that time still in collective centres living very impoverished lives in very bad conditions. As were many others at the time.

And, you know, one thing that that study - and I'm very proud about that study - it was the first report of the Ãå±±½ûµØwhere we said maybe return isn't for everyone. You know, the goal, and it's a very legitimate goal, was to reverse the ethnic cleansing to, you know, allow people to, you know, reconnect with the rights that they had previously. But of course, for the groups that I was looking at - including Srebrenica mothers but also other victims of sexual and other forms of trauma - this return to villages where they knew that their perpetrators were still either running the town, were still in positions of authority. There was limited prosecution. You know, very little investigations. They really didn't want to return in large part. We said there needed to be options for people who were suffering, trauma, torture. You know that they also had agency to say, you know, several years after the war, they didn't want to return home. That they wanted to remain where they were.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 18:24

When we met, you were serving at UNHCR. You were working on protection, refugee protection policy. At that time, what were the key challenges that you were seeing for protecting refugees around the world?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 18:42

And so, you have for five years, I was the chief legal adviser at the High Commissioner for Refugees. I was involved, including from the Bosnia times, of kind of crafting arguments that victims of sexual violence and rape are refugees, because they've suffered torture and persecution. And in fact, trying to use the language that the state understood better to craft these types of legal arguments, which has now become UNHCR doctrine. And more importantly than that, of course, a number of countries, a large number of countries now accept that as a matter of legal reality that victims of rape and sexual violence can be refugees. And I think, looking back, that's a very strange¡­ It's strange to be sitting in 2023 and thinking that when I kind of started those arguments had to be made.

And then, you know, fast forward to my time as chief legal adviser at UNHCR, we were still putting forward those arguments. I drafted the UNHCR¡¯s first guidelines on gender related persecution, and a number of other guidelines. But what had happened in kind of that 20-year interval is a¡­ Well, some of the legal standards had been entrenched. There were other methods in which refugees were being excluded from protection, such as interception measures. Such as, you know, housing people in large camps and trying to prevent onward movement. Non-entr¨¦e visa kind of requirements, etc. So, the whole refugee area now is incredibly fraught. I think it is time for a kind of a reckoning on this, and a reckoning within the reality of the 21st century. I think the legal documents themselves remain robust. There are some gaps in them, which is natural over a now 70-plus-year period of some of these treaties.

And you know, the hard¡­ I don't know how you found it, Melissa, but the hard part about working at UNHCR was that I always felt that we were on the catch-up side of the border. So, you know, the real solution to the refugee problem is human rights. It¡¯s development, human rights. It¡¯s international peace and security. You know that the root cause of a lot of this is essentially the failure of the international community - the United Nations, perhaps included in that - to resolve conflicts, to resolve disputes between parties, to find peace. And that I think, is where, you know, we should be spending a lot of our energies. You know, where are the peacekeepers? Where are the peacemakers? You know, in some ways we used to, you know, know them by name. We knew who the peace brokers were. But I think we should be saying the word ¡°peace¡± on a regular basis. We've been saying the word ¡°armed conflict¡± for a long time and ¡°aggression.¡± And I think, you know, aggression used to be a war against peace. That was the title of it. And I think we should - even though it's a small thing in our language - start talking about peace a lot more in the solutions to that.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:24

I think that's an important call, and we need a movement for peace. A third of the world is living under conflict situation. So, we need absolutely a way out. But now you're the first woman to be the Ãå±±½ûµØSpecial Rapporteur on torture. What is keeping you awake at night when it comes to such crimes?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 22:48

There is an increase in the use of torture worldwide. It's partly correlated to the fact that, as you mentioned, you know, we're in a¡­ we have more wars going on in this world since 1945. The International Committee of the Red Cross says there are 100 armed conflicts currently going on. And regrettably, with armed conflict comes an uptick in the use of torture and other forms of inhuman treatment. I rebuke the argument that it's a natural coalescence because I think disciplined troops do not torture. I think enough armies in this world know the rules of law of war. They know that torture is absolutely prohibited in all circumstances. There are no excuses for torture.

Yet we are in a place where certainly in this new role of Special Rapporteur on torture, you know, my office is inundated with allegations of torture coming from all different types of countries, many in armed conflict. But of course, in armed conflict, it's very hard to make a¡­ put together a dossier for the Special Rapporteur on torture. People are trying to just survive and get out of harm's way, mostly. So, the fact that I am receiving large numbers of allegations, far too many for my small staff to be able to handle. I am kept up at night by the fact that we have the answers to many of these challenges yet they're not being implemented by states. And states, some states, are leading by terrible example. You know, running through these allegation letters and realizing that I'm not able to respond to all of them. That perhaps people have reached out to me as their final straw. I may not be the first, you know, point of call. And yet I still may not be able to respond. Or if I do, and I do take these allegations forward, their own countries may not respond to me. I, you know, that keeps me up at night. Strategizing how I could do something better, who I need to talk to. You know, a constant kind of tactical and strategic discussions are going on in my head every day.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:39

I understand waking up in the morning can be tough too when you turn on your phone and you see what kind of messages you're getting. What do those look like?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 25:52

I think¡­ You know, I was just in Ukraine. And what's interesting about that is remembering that we're also traumatized by other people's traumas. Some of those interviews I don't remember doing. Kind of coming off seven heavy days of which within seven days there were five air raid alerts. I can't imagine, you know, the general population living through this. I mean, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. So, the fact that, you know, people on a regular basis are being woken up in the middle of the night is in a way collective form of torture. You know, and coming off that, having spoken to a relatively large number of individuals, victims, and survivors of alleged torture, as well as individuals who've been accused of collaboration with the Russian state and who are being detained. As well as, having gone to visit and to check on the treatment of Russian prisoners of war. You know, it's very hard to kind of process the types of harms that are being perpetrated and that are being perpetrated today in the 21st century.

You know, we had an air raid alert in the middle of one of, in fact two air raid alerts in the middle of conducting the interview. So of course, we followed procedure, and we continued. I continued to carry out these interviews in the bunkers. One was in the bunker of a prison, which essentially was what I call the pickled cellar, the pickle jar cellar. It was wall to wall of you can imagine Ukrainian pickles of cucumbers and cabbage, etc., for the prison population. But that was the safest place in the prison. And we continued those interviews. But to be sitting across from grown men who kind of look away occasionally, who don't want to see¡­ don't want you to see how upset they are. To see the tremors when they recount their stories. Who apologize because they can't recall what happened at a certain point during the torture, or they couldn't remember the day of the week. And of course, we know that torture puts stresses on the brain. And stresses on the brain according to neuroscientists means that memory recall is made much more difficult. You know that those¡­ The bravery of those individuals to speak to someone. And for them I'm a complete stranger. To share their story in the detail that they were able to muster. Yeah, it's very distressing.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:05

You also, I believe have¡­ I don't know if you've been to Sudan recently, but you've certainly been following what's happening in Sudan and have commented. Is that something that¡­? I mean, it's obviously a horrific conflict. But you're also concerned about the torture part of it.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 29:26

We have communicated about the sexual violence that seems to be quite prolific in Sudan. I would like to investigate this more thoroughly. I think there's always a challenge¡­ One, or one of the greatest challenges with the conflicts in Sudan, but also Yemen, Afghanistan, is the element of the non-state actors. And that can really muddy the waters as to who is ultimately responsible, who has control over territory and so forth. Around the world in the Congo as well, you know, you're dealing with non-state actors, and state actors. And that murky world. Syria. At one stage, I recall there were like 350 different armed actors in the Syrian conflict. I mean, this makes establishing peace and documenting and investigating crimes, including those of torture, very difficult.

 

Melissa Fleming 30:38

I wonder¡­ I mean, having to hear these accounts of torture and inhumane treatment day in and day out. Even sitting with the victims on your trips. How do you cope personally? Doesn't it ever get to be too much?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 30:57

It can get to be too much. Certainly, I've had my share of medical issues that have been prompted by stress. And related to that, of course, is you know, hearing these stories. They're in my mind. In a way, you know, you mentioned the women of Srebrenica at the beginning. I mean, I do remember the faces of most of the people I've met, and in fact, they keep me going in this work. And at the same time, of course, their stories haunt me. I mean, I try. I do yoga. I try and rebalance my life. And as you would know, you know, people within the Ãå±±½ûµØsystem, we¡¯re not very good at having hobbies. I have tried very hard to expand my non work life. And in fact, took a sabbatical for a year. I needed a year off in which I just dedicated that year to allowing the beauty and creativity in this world to reform myself, and without guilt. Because I also think it's a very heavy burden that many of us carry in the positions we have. And we¡­ I mean, I quite often feel guilty about, you know, going to a museum when I know that others are not so fortunate. And so, I really took a year to kind of allow myself that time to do that, and to be able to come back stronger. Yeah, I think that's really important.

 

Melissa Fleming 32:45

Finally, Alice, do you think¡­? I hear that you're raising your voice and you're engaging with those who could change policies. But are you optimistic that things can get better and that torture¡­that people will live up to the rules of war and international law and relegate torture to history?

 

Alice Jill Edwards 33:12

I'm calling for government leadership in this area. I think it's up to them. They've got all of the know-how, the legal frameworks. Every Ãå±±½ûµØMember State is a party to one or more international treaty that has torture as a prohibition. That's quite an achievement since 1945. You know, I want to say yes. I'm desperate to say yes, Melissa, that I'm hopeful. I'm confident that there are a large number of countries in this world that are trying to do the right thing. And that there are at times incidents of torture or other inhuman treatment that they may not have dealt with adequately. And then there's the pocket of countries that are in armed conflict or that have policies of silencing dissent or of intimidating their populations.

So, where that currently lies - the balance between the two - it's certainly on the, I think, more on the positive state practice. But of course, with 100 countries in armed conflict, it skews that entirely. So, I'm not at the end of my tenure yet. And there are plenty of, you know, fantastic organizations working on this. Civil society in many different parts of the world, prosecutors and investigators, national preventive mechanism committees, as well as the United Nations different agencies. So, you know, I think we're all trying to play our part in holding governments to account but also showing them the way that they can do things differently and better.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:20

Thank you, Alice, for what you do. And thank you for joining us on Awake at Night.

 

Alice Jill Edwards 35:25

Thanks so much, Melissa. Great to see you again.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:30

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, Carlos Macias and the team at the Ãå±±½ûµØstudio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.