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Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 00:00

 

You know, the struggle to look for resources, to fund the fight against gender-based violence - I mean, it beggars belief. It's easier to get money for everything else. Tackling gender-based violence, so that women can be safe, so that girls can just go to school, so that women can be productive, self-reliant, have and enjoy the dignity and human rights equally - the struggle to get resources for that, I mean, it keeps me awake at night. It really does.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:39

 

From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. My guest today is Amanda Khozi Mukwashi, the United Nations Resident Coordinator in Lesotho. Welcome, Amanda.

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 00:59

 

Thank you very much for having me, Melissa.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:04

 

You've spent more than 25 years working in international development. And you're also author of a book about identity called ¡°But where are you really from?¡±  And you once said in an interview that instead of making people, or instead of asking people that question, a more appropriate one might be: ¡°Who are you? How would you describe yourself?¡± Who are you, Amanda?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 01:34

 

Oh, wow, Melissa, thank you so much for having me on your programme. And when you said 25 years, it only feels like two years, but it's probably more than that now, to be fair. Who am I? I'm made up of so many different things. I'm not one thing and one thing only. And this is what I try to say to colleagues and also, I think, to my family, that I'm a woman, I'm a black woman, I am an African black woman. I'm a woman of faith. I'm a mother, I'm a sister, I'm a daughter, I'm a friend. I'm also the Ãå±±½ûµØresident coordinator in Lesotho, and all that really makes up I think the person that I am, and many more other pieces, I think, that add to that.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 02:29

 

So that is your preferred question. I wonder where did the title of your book come from? And I'll just say it again, the book title is: ¡°But where are you really from?¡± Did I use the emphasis correctly?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 02:24

 

Yes, yes, no, I mean, it's perfect. I wrote this book during the COVID lockdown. And for many years, you know, these questions had been going through my mind. And of course, in 2020, they sort of crystallized into something that was quite tangible. And the reason I wrote it was, I wanted to say ¡®No¡¯ to racism. I also wanted to show people that each one of us has got, comes from a sort of a multifaceted background, that every single one of us, and also, I wanted to raise awareness of the fact that I think that over the years, over the decades, centuries, we have all inherited and profited from a mechanism that created an environment, where racial injustice thrives. And what really sort of made me sit down to write it was my grandmother had passed. And I just thought I come from such a rich history of people, of migrants, of you know, different heritage, but it's all just oral, it's all just spoken. We never write it, it was okay to just talk about it. But when you get to a point where that lack of written history is used against you, the colour of your skin is problematic. You always have to find ways of justifying who you are.

 

You know, I was always asked, ¡°Oh, Amanda, you're so well spoken, your English is so good. You know, your values are so good. Where did you learn them from?¡± And you know, you'd think to yourself, ¡°Wow, why would you ask me something like that?¡± You know? And so instead of fighting racism, from an angry perspective, or point, what I thought is, ¡°Why don't I tell the story in a different way? Why don't I tell the story in a way that says: you know what, Melissa? You probably have similar stories that you could tell about yourself. And any one of us can do that. Why don't we focus on the common things that we have, and that we share? And maybe if we focus on that, then we are going to put the differences into perspective, which is they're going to take on a lot less importance in our lives, and in this world of ours.¡± So that was the driver, really. I wanted to tell a different story.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:29

 

I wonder is that question, a question that, particularly people of colour, get from white people?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 05:40

 

Well, from my experience, yes. And I have to clarify something here. There is a first question that is asked, ¡°Hi, Amanda. Where are you from?¡± And you know, you can take it either way. And I think that particular question is normally asked to anybody, regardless of the colour of your skin, right? And I've always thought, even in Zambia, where I'm originally from, somebody might ask, ¡°Where are you from?¡± because they want to find common identity. They want to find an entry point into the conversation, you know, so if you say, I'm from Keembe, which is in central Zambia, then somebody would say, ¡°Oh, I'm from there as well.¡± And then you know, you go on, and you say, ¡°Oh, so which village?¡± and then you say which village you're from.  And normally, that is really about - I want to get to know you better.

 

Right? If I'm in England, and somebody says to me, ¡°Where are you from?¡± ¡°I'm from Coventry,¡± right? And they say, ¡°Oh, really? I went to this school. Which school did you go to?¡± That is people really trying to get to know each other. But this particular question always comes after that first question.

 

So you're asked, ¡°Where are you from?¡± And you say, ¡°I'm from Coventry.¡± And somebody says, ¡°No, no, no, no, no, but where are you really from?¡± And that, for me, is a denial of who you have self- defined to be. Right? And if it's a white person asking another white person, normally, that would not happen, unless you've got a different accent, you sound different, then somebody might say, ¡°Oh, but the way you speak sounds as if you're from Scotland, or sounds as if you're from some other country.¡± Right? But for people of colour, as long as your skin colour is different, I found that I had to answer that question just too many times.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:41

 

So the assumption was that there's no way that you could have come from Coventry.

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 07:45

 

Yes, you can't be from here. And for me, as a first-generation migrant to the UK, maybe I could even say, okay, maybe I understand. But really, what about my children? What about my children's children? For how long are they going to continue to have to justify themselves?

 

You know, Rowan Williams, the former archbishop of Canterbury, puts it this way, that it's almost like they're being asked to show their papers, every time that question is asked, it's like, ¡°Show me your identity. Show me, you know, what rights do you have to be here.¡± Right?

 

And when you think about it, when you go back in history, in Western Europe, the migration in there, there is nobody really, or there are very few people who can claim to say, ¡°I am originally from here, and I haven't come from anywhere.¡± You know, we've all come from somewhere, we've moved and evolved, because that's, that's what life is, right? That's what life is.

 

Melissa Fleming 08:49

 

And that's what makes society so rich.

 

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 08:51

 

Yes, I think so, at least from my experience of living in different countries, of meeting different people, of working in the sector that I've chosen to work, in terms of international development. And what I found is that I am better off, because I've met so many different people. In fact, I went to school in Italy, because my parents were diplomats. And I didn't have maybe two or three single friends from the same nationality. They were from all over.

 

And what was fascinating is that when we would talk, for example, about our parents, and how strict they were, we had all that in common. All of us, regardless of whether you were Italian, whether you were Indian, whether you were Israeli, or you know, Jordanian, or ¡­ it really didn't matter, and, and that's what we focused on, and sometimes you just wish that innocence of youth that just takes you as you are.

 

I wish we could sort of take that with us into our adulthood, because I think we lose that, and then it affects the work that we do. And it affects how we work with people, how inclusive we are. And, and this was my issue that, you know, working in international development, I wanted to say to my colleagues in the development sector, that look, if we're going to win this battle, this fight against poverty, it's not just about frameworks, it's not just about tools. It's not just about expertise.

 

And it's really about our humanhood, you know, how we how we see each other, if you don't see me as somebody who is at the same level as a human with you, because of the colour of my skin, then you will miss out on, for example, the knowledge that I have, what I know works or doesn't work.

 

You know, it's those kinds of things that really you miss out. And so that's what I was trying to get colleagues in the development sector to grapple with that, you know, let's not be afraid when people talk about decolonization, for example, you know, instead, let's ask ourselves the question, ¡°What does this mean? How can we engage with it?¡± You know, ¡°What, are we not getting right? And what do we need to really dig deep into and have the conversation?¡±

 

Melissa Fleming 11:24

 

Right, when there's anger, and when there's resentment, there is a reason.

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 08:51

 

There is absolutely. And not only that - if we keep on our two sides of the corner, as if this is a boxing match, you know, black and white, the victim and the victimized, the guilty and the accused, it's such an unhealthy and unhelpful polarization of who we are as human beings. Right? It's oversimplifying it. And I'm hoping, at least before I joined the UN, I think this conversation colleagues had started engaging with it. And it's a conversation that I hope to continue. I really wouldn't want to lose it.

 

Melissa Fleming 12:07

 

Absolutely. I¡¯m just trying to picture you in COVID lockdown and then you lost your grandmother. Can you tell me about her, because she seemed¡­  And her death, you've mentioned was a catalyst for you writing the book.

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 12:22

 

It was a catalyst, but she died before COVID, before the lockdown. So I was very grateful that I was able to go back to Zambia, to go and bury her. And I, you know, I mean, this woman was an incredible, incredible, incredible woman. I learned about gender justice at the village with my grandmother and my grandfather. They didn't talk about it in the way that I talk about it. So they didn't say gender justice. They probably didn't use the words women's empowerment or women's rights.

 

But boy, oh, boy, did they fight for women's rights. You know, my grandfather made sure that his daughters went to school, you know, at a time when everybody else was saying they shouldn't go to school, girls should be married. You know, my grandfather said, no. I mean, his reasoning was interesting. I mean, he would say things like, ¡°I want my daughters to be able to speak, like the white farmers, I want them to speak in that language. I want them to be able to read, to write, and I want them to be successful.¡± And not only did he send his daughters to school, he influenced the entire village, so all his brothers, his cousins.

 

 

 

And my grandmother, I believe, was the soft power behind that. We used to joke about it, because we used to say, her nickname was ¡®the manager.¡¯ And she would say to us, ¡°You know, this is how you lead. You can lead from behind. But also you can lead quietly, right? And you get so many more things achieved.¡± But what I found really powerful was when I went home for a funeral. I mean the way hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that came and they came from near and far. And we thought it was going to cost us a lot of money. It didn't, because everybody that came brought something to the funeral.

 

And my grandparents¡¯ nickname was ¡°mpabose.¡± And ¡®mpabose¡¯ means they give to everyone. And, you know, they were migrants, Melissa, they came from Zimbabwe, they went to Zambia, they lived there all their adult lives. And when they died, they died as foreigners, okay? And that is quite painful for me. But I think I'm being selfish because they were happy to be in Zambia, but also to hold on to their identity, right? So when I went for the funeral, and over the years, what I have really begun to accept is, you don't have to be either/or, you know? Just because I'm a migrant who lives in the United Kingdom, right? It doesn't mean that I have to give up my Zambian-ness, right? Or, or the values that I was raised with, or what it means to be Zambian, right? I can be that, and I can be British, and I can respect what is British, and I can love what is British, and there is enough space in me, and in every human being to be all of those things.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:45

 

It's so moving, and I was just ¡­ but I wonder, also, you mentioned that you¡¯ve just been all over the world working for development, but you did yourself, you also identify yourself as a migrant, a migrant who had to start out in the UK. What was it like for you? And, you know, looking for a job there? And when did you first become aware of racial issues?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 16:15

 

You know, there are times when I think there were sort of drips over to awareness. And then there was a moment, like, okay, putting a name to it, right? I did my secondary school in Rome, in Italy, and it's probably one of my favourite places in the world. But, you know, I remember, you know, being in Rome, being at school, being visited by a class of students from South Africa. At the time, South Africa wasn't free. And they were talking about what it was like, in South Africa, right? And we were quite shocked.

 

But I remember that it just made me feel so sad. But you know, there were other sort of moments when I was at school, where I thought, ¡°What's going on there?¡± But it was, I think, when I moved to the UK -  I went to do my masters. And then I went back to Zambia, and then I came back to try and get employed in the UK. I think that's when the realisation of, you know, being black that, you know, actually, I'm a black person.

 

And people around me don't see me as simply a human being, they see me as a black human being, right? And I think that was the rude awakening, it was quite difficult. And sometimes I asked myself, ¡°How did I survive not being depressed, right, during that time?¡±

 

 

Melissa Fleming 18:01

 

How did you?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 18:02

 

I think there are a number of things, probably, faith is probably my biggest answer to that. But the way it manifested itself was what was difficult. So, by then I had a master's degree, I had been working for the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa. I had experience. And, and then I moved to the UK, I went looking for a job, I went to job agencies.

 

And, and it was always ¡®no,¡¯ it was always ¡®no,¡¯ it was always ¡®no.¡¯ And this woman called Rebecca. I mention her name, I know it won't identify her, said to me, ¡°You know what, Amanda? Don't you have any other experience in the UK?¡± I said, ¡°Like what?¡± She says, ¡°Even cleaning, if you have the experience as a cleaner, it's going to be easier for me to sell you, because then I can say you have experience of working in the UK.¡±

 

So just to put this into context, Melissa, I, I used to be the coordinator for the Women in Business Unit of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa, right? I sat down and supported the intergovernmental process, of actually writing, drafting the treaty that established the Common Market, right? And here I was, and I was being told that ¡°Look, that is not really going to sell, you know, do you have experience as a cleaner?¡± I did a quick course, as an auxiliary nurse¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 19:44

 

But I just wonder if ¡­ How did you react to Rebecca when she said that?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 19:48

 

Um, I think at the time I didn't argue. I think I was in shock. I think that other black people, black women, in particular, had been telling me, but I didn't want to accept, you know? So when this happened, I thought I need to put food on the table, right? It was me and my husband and our little girl. And so I went and trained as a care worker.

 

But I would be doing myself a disservice, and maybe even this conversation, if I didn't say to you that in all that difficult experience, I became a stronger person, I learned some humility. And I started the journey of sort of trying to understand how do people look at other people? How do they treat other people? What is driving them, right? And I think, I think that some of my choices of - I will always speak out, regardless of the space that I'm in, right, I think came from there. Or rather they crystallized when I went through those experiences.

 

And I realised I'm a black person, and people do see me, they see the colour of my skin first, before they see who I am, and what I'm capable of doing. I began to understand that this stands in the way of me and getting a good job, me fully re-actualized, you know, being self-actualizing. I love to wear bright colours, I, you know, I want to laugh very loudly, you know, I want to have ¡­ I want to change my hair every month. And I want to speak in a particular way. And that's all part of who I am.

 

But what I realised was that I started to, to bottle that, to close that, so that I could be accepted. Speak in a particular way, you know, present myself in a particular way. And it wasn't until much later that I became a stronger Amanda, that I thought, ¡°You know what, actually, I'm not happy. So I need to really let everybody know that this is who I am, you know, and there¡¯s space for different identities at the table, right?¡±

 

 

But what took me through that were two things. One, it was what I call the Black Sisterhood, who said to me, you know, ¡°Girl, what are you doing? Remember who you are, okay, get up!¡± And it wasn't just pep talk, it was, this is how you can get through. So I started volunteering, you know, I started offering my services for free. And that's how I managed to break through into paid employment. But you know, the Black Sisterhood was very strong. And then, of course, they reminded me of my grandfather and what he told me.

 

In my book, I talk about the story of the trees know my name, you know, one of those stories that's passed from generation to generation. Because my grandfather, said to my mother, when she was afraid ¡­ it had been raining, and it had stopped and they were walking. And if you're at the village, right, or in places where there are forests, what happens is after rain, the little twigs start to crack, fall down, they start to crack, because the rain was so heavy, right? And my mother was afraid. And so my grandfather said, ¡°Don't be afraid. The trees are talking about you. And one tree says, ¡®Oh, is that Amanda,¡¯ for example? And the other tree says, ¡®No, it's not.¡¯ And the other tree says, ¡®Of course it is. I'm going to call her name. And you see, she's going to jump, she's going to respond.¡¯ And so the tree says, ¡®Amanda!¡¯ and then you jump, and the tree says ¡®You see!¡¯ and so my grandfather said, ¡°So remember, wherever you go, regardless of where you are in the world, the trees know who you are.¡± And when I was in England, I was reminded of that, that it didn't matter where I was, essentially what my grandfather was saying was that the Creator knows who I am. And the trees know who I am, because they were created by the same creator. So we were all created together, right? And so that really just lifted my spirits and says  keep walking.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 25:00

 

But I wonder, Amanda, when you think about racial injustice, what is keeping you awake at night these days?

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 25:11

 

Oh, um, a couple of things keep me awake. One is really being in a position and finding the space and the platform to help the United Nations as a whole, as a whole system to get even more comfortable and more confident, to speak about the issue of ¡®othering,¡¯ the issue of racism. Okay, we are a microcosm of the world that we live in. So if there is racism out there, then there is racism within, right? The great thing is, we're not shying away from it.

 

But I believe that we need to do more, we need to understand what coloniality is - the legacy of oppression, so that when we come to doing our programme development - so for example, in Lesotho we're doing our cooperation framework soon, and we're all very, very excited about it. And but we also understand that we have to hear what the government and the people of Lesotho have to say, first and foremost, you know? And, and I think that is already in progress.

 

But now we really need to step up even more and hear and some of the things, especially those areas where they might have different opinions, or different agenda from what we think. I think we need to understand the economy, you know, what part of the economic challenges as a result of national politics, and what part of the economic struggles are actually embedded in a longer historical baggage, the legacy of slavery, the legacy of colonization. Let's talk about it a little bit more freely, not for it to hold our hands and tie them, but for it to liberate us to think differently. So on a bigger sort of strategic level that keeps me awake.

 

 

I think on a more sort localised level - gender-based violence. It breaks my heart, that where I am at the moment, the level of violence against women and girls, is just so, so unacceptable. I remember going to Bangladesh many years ago when I was working for Christian Aid, going to Cox's Bazaar, talking to this woman, she had two daughters, one was 12 and one was 14. And because it was, it's not a permanent shelter, it had no security, in terms of the door, anybody could really just walk in. And when she was telling me about her plight, she says, ¡°I sleep across the door.¡± And I said, ¡°Why?¡± And then she said, ¡°Because if they're going to violate my daughters, I would rather be dead first. So they have to kill me first to get to my daughters.¡± You know, the struggle to look for resources to fund the fight against gender-based violence. I mean, it beggars belief.

 

It's easier to get money for everything else. But when we say let's have a whole system's, you know, approach to tackling gender-based violence, so that women can be safe, so that girls can just go to school, you know, achieve what they need to achieve, so that women can be productive, self-reliant, have and enjoy their dignity and human rights equally, the struggle to get resources for that - I mean, it keeps me awake at night. It really does. The numbers of women experiencing violence around the world is just unacceptable. So, but I'm not going to give up. I don't think so. You know, that's why I'm in my job. But even if I wasn't in this job, I still wouldn't give up.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:16

 

Amanda, it's been so inspiring talking to you. Thank you for joining us.

 

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi 29:20

 

No, thank you so much, Melissa. And it's been lovely talking to you. And I hope that you get time, one day to come and visit us in Lesotho.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:30

 

I would love to!

 

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working to do some good in this world at a time of global crisis.

 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we¡¯re and I'm . Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please do take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Jen Thomas, Adam Paylor and the team at Purpose and to my colleagues at the UN: Roberta Politi, Katerina Kitidi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova and the team at the Ãå±±½ûµØstudio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.